Mock Election - Debate Thread {Moderated by Duckman and RebelChild}

[Rebel Child]

Mr. Lemke, do you have anything you would like to add?

[Zombie Gunn]

Got a PM from Exile. He will post tonight.

[Exile]

The current economic crisis is very real. Whether this can be considered the "richest" recession doesn't really matter if the people involved are struggling as much as they are. I’m not sure if Mr. Sentz is out of touch with what’s going on in America right now, or if he just chooses to slap a coat of paint on it and call it all better.

All around the country people ARE in fact in a state of panic and while we have been dealing with fear spread through the airwaves before, this is a situation where it was kept mum instead of broadcasted. Despite warnings from bipartisan government officials, it became much easier to ignore than to recognize that there was a problem. This is not a government that acts, this is a government that REacts.

So while mortgage payments pile up, one month paying a thousand dollars and the next paying ten thousand, banks shutting down credit applications and loans, and small businesses closing their doors because the consumer market is frozen in fear, what is it that the government can do?

REGULATE. Plainly and simply. We have to watch dog the market, the corporations, and strike down hard on every single dime that is misappropriated. For too long we have turned a complete blind eye to corporate greed and shady ethics, we stood by while our middle class evaporated, while jobs left this country, while unfair loans were given out, while insider trading became the norm. We did not just allow ourselves to deregulate the market, we distanced ourselves so completely from the private sector that there IS no more private sector.
We saw the warning signs of Enron, we saw them with AIG, we saw them with Mae and Mac and we did nothing to stop it. Ladies and gentlemen, that is simply shirking our responsibility and now you are the ones paying the price for that.

So it has now come that we have pay 700 billion dollars to bail these organizations out, with an additional 250 billion to follow and we have ALREADY seen companies continue acting the way that they had before this crisis. It’s unconscionable. We can use the 700 billion dollars as a band-aid then pretend everything is all better OR we can use this to show these companies that things are going to be different. That they abused the rights that American’s gave them and we are going to make sure that every PENNY of tax payer money in that bailout is used correctly.
Once we have stabilized the market, we can work on getting our dependence on foreign oil down, we can fix the mortgage crisis, we can get health care and social security where we need to, and as Mr. Gunn stated, lessen our 10 trillion dollar national deficit (5 trillion of it coming in the past 8 years). All of this starts with accountability, and you can count on me to hold the feet to the fire.

[Duckman]

Thank you gentlemen, some very interesting points raised.

We are all aware that the current global attitude towards America is not positive.  The Iraq war, Guantemo Bay and continual talk of attacking both North Korea and Iran should they not yield to the wishes of the current Administration, have left America 'out in the cold' with many countries around the world.

How would you deal with the rest of the world,  in these three key areas?  Military, humanitary and politically.

A word limit of 750 should suffice.  Gentlemen, the floor is yours.

[Big Gay Honker]

i think we normally get rebuttals first Mr. Duckman

[Rebel Child]

I think Mr. Duckman went away for his vacay, so I'll give this a go.  I hate maximum lengths, but I don't know what else to do.  You will allow to rebut your opponents in 700 words or less.  And then we'll go onto the question Mr. Duckman had asked.

[Tim-Æ]

Unfortunately I don't see there being any sure-fire solution to help put the economy back to normal. Not a single one of the ideas posed to the public is going to work. They'd all be shot down by Congress.

Here's the difference between myself and my opponents. They aren't realistic. There is no solution to the economic crisis b/c frankly its happened before, it'll happen again, and there's no way to avoid it. The public's best approach would be to save their money. While your vote matters in some cases, oddly enough Congress will do as they please. Were you asked what you thought of the bailout? No. It wasn't up to you.

Your only solution to this economic "crisis" as my opponents and the media like to put it, is to be patient. By the Spring-time we will be working our way up. It's that age old phrase "why do we fall? So we can pick ourselves back up again." This is still the richest recession we've ever experienced, and I'll remind you that that unemployment is no where near as fatal as it was during the Great Depression. If you believe my opponents, you'll keep buying into their lies about how this is just utter chaos. It's not. It's all premature, and it looks bad, don't get me wrong. But we will prevail, we always do.

[Big Gay Honker]

Well that was all fine and dandy here.  But it seems to me like Mr Gunn missed a few things.  He pointed out the salary of congress makes up .1% of the budget...  But if you'll look back at what I said, "This doesn't seem like a whole lot for government spending, but it all has to start somewhere.".  I know it's not a start, but to get the spending down, we have to nickel and dime our way down.  I didn't even mention the benefits these people get either did I?  We need to slice things down, without cutting them out.  Shrink down several area's.  Like I said, in case you missed it the first time.  Shrinking congress would be the start.  Many other places to cut money from going into my friend.

He also speaks ill about my insurance plan.  While I do like stance against illegal immigration, I'm not so sure I like his stance on not helping the people in need of immediate medical attention.  I think we'd be better off by having INS and hospitals work together.  Legal aliens must carry a green card on them at all times right?  Why not have hospitals work with local police when someone comes in without it?  Have the officer escort them home when they dont have their card.  Stolen card?  There are records of you and your picture, you'll be proven legally here in no time.  The illegals are already going to hospitals for serious injuries and non serious, this will at least cut down on the non serious visits.  Oh and I did say what my plan is.  Make government insurance available to working class people who pay into it only, with exception only to those who CAN NOT work at all.  Contract private insurance companies for lower rates by increasing their cash flow by adding more members than they were getting to begin with.  That's not to say the Medicaid deduction will stay the same, in fact, it may have to double.  BUT, you're already paying for it, and some people get insurance on top of that.  Why?  This can lower the two by at least a 3rd under my plan.

Regulation is key, I agree with Mr Lemke.  Something as important as banks are to this country, they should be regulated.  Same thing for Wall Street.  If I were the current President, I would have shot down this 700 Billion dollar bail out.  Listen, there are other banks out there.  These larger banks would go out, sure.  But the smaller ones would rise up and take their place.  The old assets of the large banks, seized by the government, and can be auctioned off to the public.  Not the banks, the people.  These fat cats did this to themselves, and they're not broke because of it.  If anyone needed to be bailed out, it should be the victims who lost their homes.  The people who listened to the brokers telling them they can afford a 300000 home on a 30000 a year wage because of the ARM program, interest rates are at an all time low.  Look what happened.  It turned out to not be such a good deal after all.  Who knew that would happen? 

Mr. Tim calls this richest recession yet.  Yes, people are losing tens of thousands from their retirement funds.  Money these people were counting on, gone.  People are losing their homes, jobs.  Maybe to those of us fortunate enough to remain employed and lost very little in all of this.  The victims of this who have lost close to everything would disagree. 

Another thing I didn't mention before, currency.  I think it's time we destroyed more of it.  Money is destroyed every year believe it or not.  But more is made, replacing it and even becoming more than originally there.  We need to destroy more of it, to make our money worth more once again.  It's not just our market we buy into, but also the foreign markets as well. 

Again, thank you all for listening to me.

[Big Gay Honker]

Any other rebuttals?

[Zombie Gunn]

Idealism is heavy in this debate.  But this is about what the people of America want in a president.  Perhaps, if politicians began listening to the people again, we would find ourselves in a better economic situation.

We could continue with the status quo, as with Tim.  We could go with false promies, as in Honker.  Or we could lay out everything on the table that we would want to accomplish.  So far, the only other person in this election with a clear approach is Exile.

He agrees with ending deregulation.  Listen, I’m all for small business getting a helping hand.  That was the theory behind deregulation.  I’m not for creating an oligarchy of bigwig banking giants sharing pockets and treating their executives to vacations using the money given to them with this bailout.

The Great Depression was caused by trickledown economics.  Something that many people still cling to as a working system.  What we’ve been seeing as the modern trend is trickle-up poverty.  There’s been an expansion of the lower class.  The welfare state is not suffering during this economic crisis.  Not yet, at least.  The people that are suffering are those able-bodied ladies and gentlemen that work for a living, the ones that Honker doesn’t believe work enough.  They suffer because they STILL cannot afford health insurance or make their mortgage payment, and they STILL have fears of what tomorrow holds.  That needs to change, and will change under my plans.

Respectfully, I would disagree with Tim’s outlook on this situation.  In a way, his vision of the cyclical pattern that he sees in this nation is even more pessimistic than Honker and Exile’s soup lines.  Because it’s irresponsible.  We are in a crisis.  I’m reminded of a quote from one of our past presidents.  “In America today, we are nearer a final triumph over poverty than in any other land.”  That came approximately one year prior to the stock market crash that caused the Great Depression.  People, now is not the time to sit on our hands and hope for the best.

At the same time, well… it’s hard to know where to begin when looking at Honker’s plan.  I will ask his forgiveness, because I misunderstood a statement of his earlier.  It turns out that he did explain his plan on providing health insurance, he would put it in the hands of the government.  The same health insurance plan that federal employees have access to, he would make available to everyone.  Nice job shrinking the size of government, Honker.  But how to pay for such an expense?  “Available to working class people who pay into it only” he says.  Tell me… Mr. Honker, how is that any different than Blue Shield?  Than Kaiser?  Or any other health coverage for that matter?  As it stands now, anybody can receive health coverage from any of these providers except for the one directly from the government… if I didn’t know any better, I’d think you were trying to sell the American people a timeshare.  Honker, the problem isn’t the quality of the insurance… or having insurance available… it’s that they can’t afford it.  Factor in that it will now be handled by the government, which has time and time again shown that it spends twice as much as necessary in nearly every situation, and this will likely increase the cost of health care, not lower it.

If that wasn’t bad enough… we have the shining beacon of Honker’s plan to pull this country out of the recession.  Let’s burn the money.  I’m not really sure if I need to say more to this.  I believe he’s referring to inflation.  The fact that the dollar is worth less, because of the amount of money in circulation.  This is like his idea of cutting the pay of congress, except worse.  Instead of sticking a bandaid on a festering wound, he’s now stuck it on the gas gauge of his car, hoping he will magically have a full tank.

I already explained my plan for boosting the economy.  Taxcuts for manufacturers and grants for new inventions are part of it.  Also, education reform to train our children to do more than just ace a test.  That’s good for the long term.  In the short term, we need to look at the principle on these home loans, and alter them to fit their actual value.  Also, the repeal or modification of every deregulation bill that has left congress over the last twenty years.

[Tim-Æ]

I'm hoping that all of you can back up your claims of the financial crisis by giving bit by bit how it's affecting your wallets. That's the point your all missing. How is the financial "meltdown" hurting you? Because the people that are hurting in this crisis don't have a voice apparently b/c they can't relate to someone who is not affected by it.

How it affects me? Barely. I didn't invest in any stock, my credit, my savings, all fine. I don't have multiple houses, and I don't take very many vacations. I don't have a family, nor do I own my house. So all of you think I should PRETEND to know how those who are suffering are feeling right now? You want me to lie?

I won't do that. So continue to pretend to understand the situation. You have fancy ideas, and fancy dreams. But its all BS, and the people of this nation know that. You are saying the exact same things that the man in office is saying. I'm simply being more honest about it. I've already explained that the solution here is responsibility, something that the companies the US Government are bailing out did not take into account. Common sense, responsibility, and careful planning can fix this issue. If you truly believe that the public will follow you into this "solution" you're proposing, which will cost money that we don't have, be my guest and expend your energy on it. Sure some will buy into it, but honestly, all I'm doing is leaving it up to the people. This is a democracy if I remember correctly.

[Zombie Gunn]

Thank you gentlemen, some very interesting points raised.

We are all aware that the current global attitude towards America is not positive.  The Iraq war, Guantemo Bay and continual talk of attacking both North Korea and Iran should they not yield to the wishes of the current Administration, have left America 'out in the cold' with many countries around the world.

How would you deal with the rest of the world,  in these three key areas?  Military, humanitary and politically.

A word limit of 750 should suffice.  Gentlemen, the floor is yours.

Alright, let's get onto this question since Exile doesn't have a rebuttal, or at least is too busy for one, lolz.  I'll see if I can have mine up tomorrow night since I will be camping the next 2 days after that.

[Zombie Gunn]

Okay, didn't have time to put anything up before camping.

But, this thread is taking forever.  Any suggestions?  I'd like to start the "election" on November 1, to give people 1 week to vote.

[Rebel Child]

How about you each have twenty four hours to state your opinions, if people get them in before hand, we'll go to the next question - offering you a rebuttal before your answer.  I think that might be best.

[Duckman]

Looks like no one is bothering with this anymore.

Guys, we still doing this?  If so, pull the fingers out and let's get going!!

Peace

Duckman