-Partial- 8/19 TNA Spoilers.

[The Dudester]

That was my point DQ.. same page... exactly what constitues to make a champ credible and a title meaningless in 2010?

Times, they're a changin..

In 1985, Hogan was THE MAN and seen by EVERYONE around the world as the best wrestler on the planet. The only argument was "no, Ric Flair is better".

The "Hogan vs Flair" hypotheticals from 85-92 were insane, because KAYFABE allowed people to still see it as kind of real.

But times are changing and the world titles in pretty much any org are essentially props and nothing more.

[Conor]

And you see this from a personal point of view. Sure, you may not have liked how RVD was removed as champ. Heck, everyone here at EK may have not liked it one bit.

BUT...

When the following weeks rating comes back in at a 1.2 and the fan base is maintained.. or gasp.. it even goes up, it will actually state the opposite of your opinion, and if it attracts more fans and gets more viewers, then it worked, and your opinion and thought process on this situation is void and incorrect.

IF the rating drops... and people tune OUT of the program... then it would state as you say, people didnt like it, people were turned off and it makes them care "less".

I'm willing to be the rating stays the same, or it will rise before it goes down.



**on a different note, there is alot of talk about the titles being meaningless. At this point in Professional Wrestling, what does the Title actually mean?

Someone's the best wrestler? That's clearly incorrect as 85% of the champs aren't the best wrestlers in the org. Sheamus, Orton, Cena, HHH, Abyss, Booker, Jarrett.. none of them are ever going to be confused with the best wrestlers in the organizations.

Someone sells more merchandise and makes $? Hmm.. probably a bit closer.. Hogan, Cena, Hardy, HHH, Taker, Orton, all top Merch seelers while clearly not the best "wrestlers". In TNA, RVD.. not the best wrestler, but moves merch. Angle and Aj are the ebst in ring wrerstlers they have and having both as champ hasn't ever elevated the company, the title, or the people.

I think times have really changed in the landscape of PRO Wrestling from where it was and things that USED to mean something don't mean something anymore.

If the title ACTUALLY belongs around the waist of the best wrestler.. feel free to explain why John Cena is a 8 or 9 time champ while Regal is a jobber, although 8x a better 'wrestler".

Am I supposed to applaud TNA if they retain the same rating they've held almost since Impact debuted on Spike? You can call that consistency; I call it stagnation. They get over a million people watching their car crash TV on a weekly basis yet can't even crack 50,000 buys for Pay-Per-View (and despite what Dixie may think, PPV is still a good source of revenue, something TNA is in serious need of.)

As for the titles and their decreasing value: just because kayfabe is dead, does that mean we should only see titles as props? Whatever happened to suspension of disbelief? You know, that little thing you apply to all other forms of entertainment, like TV, movies and theatre? We, as fans, know that wrestling is fixed and we know that the two guys in the ring don't really hate each other (most of the time.) But we still want to be entertained. We want stories that can move us, stories of good men and women triumphing over adversity and taking their rightful place at the top of their sport. We're not able to get into that story if the object of everyone's desire is seen as nothing more than an expensive piece of jewellery.

Think about what many consider the best World title feud in TNA history: Kurt Angle Vs Samoa Joe at Lockdown 2008. Here was a story of a professional rivalry that we could all buy into. These two men wanted to prove that they were the very best and the only way to do that was to fight each other for the biggest prize in TNA, the World Heavyweight Championship. It was a simple, serious, straightforward story that anyone could get because those two guys made us believe that they wanted that belt more than anything else in the world. So when they had the match, you knew they were going to go all out to prove themselves. The result was the highest PPV buy rate that TNA had ever scored up to that point, and possibly remains the highest today.

They took their belt seriously and it paid off. They didn't do anything dumb with the feud and it paid off. It was logical, it was easy to follow and because you got an idea of how important it was for Angle and Joe to win, you could suspend your disbelief.

I know that every company has its faults, from WWE's belligerence and almost total disregard for the fans to TNA's rampant booking idiocy to ROH's persistent niche style that prevents them, too, from growing bigger. But don't blind yourself to the fact that TNA is in dire need of a creative rehaul. Few people care enough about TNA to invest in their shows. TNA gives us no reason to, and all the stopgap measures and short-term hotshotting doesn't do anything to change that.

[Jonny Worldbeater]

The basic principles of psychology, storytelling and drama have never changed, which is why they've been around for thousands of years.

The main reason IMO why wrestling is so 'different' nowadays isn't because what worked then doesn't work now, it's that most of the people in power don't know what works or why it does.

I mean, you wonder why people don't take titles and matches and feuds seriously, why people don't think they matter? Well let me ask you, when was the last time the big companies treated them seriously or acted like they matter?

When you book your show in such a way that you educate your audience to believe that if any issue isn't resolved in a week it's not worth watching, if anybody who wasn't a star 20 years ago is getting over he's gonna get his legs cut out, if the guy holding the title has no credibilty whatsoever because he just got lucky enough to catch it for a second while it's getting bounced around like a pinball every month, then eventually they'll start to believe that's all wrestling is. And if they don't like that, guess what? They're gonna stop watching. That's how you get a slump period like we've been in for at least the last 5 years.

You know, the attitudes to the styles of wrestling may have changed over the years, but the basics remain the same. The problem is that so few people in the spotlight actually use them.

Professional Wrestling has the biggest possible advantage over a legitimate combat sport like MMA in that it's NOT real, because that means the fights can turn out however you want. They can still tell their stories and promote the fights and get the people emotionally invested because even though everyone knows this shit isn't real, they still want to believe when they're watching it, the same way they want to believe Kiefer Sutherland is a badass CTU agent or Tobey Maguire is really crawling up a wall.

The whole reason people watch wrestling is for the escapism, the suspension of disbelief. They want to care about what's going on, they want to get behind the heroes and see them beat the villains.

And yet MMA is far more popular, not just because it's a real sport, but because it promotes fights in a way that tends to cast a hero and a villain and tells a story that makes you want to see them fight, and the reason they can do that is because they take influence from how it was done in the FAKE SPORT. Hell, Muhammad Ali promoted his fights so well because he used to watch Gorgeous George.

If the companies don't take wrestling seriously, then why should we?

[The Dudester]

From above...

'And yet MMA is far more popular, not just because it's a real sport, but because it promotes fights in a way that tends to cast a hero and a villain and tells a story that makes you want to see them fight, and the reason they can do that is because they take influence from how it was done in the FAKE SPORT. Hell, Muhammad Ali promoted his fights so well because he used to watch Gorgeous George."

I disagree 100%. I think the reason MMA is such a draw is because it IS real. No one ever knows what is going to happen, or who is going to beat who.. and it's real. it's real fighting, real all the way.

During the attitude era, the highest point in wrestling success history, there was always an aura around with an element of suprise. Austin stunning McMahan was a shock, it SEEMED real. the NWO.. heck it was brought in PERFECTLY as people really didn't know if WCW stars COULD slow down the Outsiders. It had the element of suprise and it had that "what is gonna happen next??" feel.

While it was breaking kayfabe, it was 'still real to some".

MMA however, isn't fixed, it's 100% legit and THAT"S why it's on top of the market.

You say it's an advantage for the E to be able to fix their results, I say it's a disadvantage. The NFL wouldnt be a success without it being real without fixes. Same with MMA, MLB, NBA... even Nascar for christ almighty does better on tv than E and TNA.

Real is always better than fixed. (Also a big reason why TV LOVES reality TV... the sense of realism is soooo much better than pre-planned results).

I disagree Johnny.

[Jonny Worldbeater]

From above...

'And yet MMA is far more popular, not just because it's a real sport, but because it promotes fights in a way that tends to cast a hero and a villain and tells a story that makes you want to see them fight, and the reason they can do that is because they take influence from how it was done in the FAKE SPORT. Hell, Muhammad Ali promoted his fights so well because he used to watch Gorgeous George."

I disagree 100%. I think the reason MMA is such a draw is because it IS real. No one ever knows what is going to happen, or who is going to beat who.. and it's real. it's real fighting, real all the way.

During the attitude era, the highest point in wrestling success history, there was always an aura around with an element of suprise. Austin stunning McMahan was a shock, it SEEMED real. the NWO.. heck it was brought in PERFECTLY as people really didn't know if WCW stars COULD slow down the Outsiders. It had the element of suprise and it had that "what is gonna happen next??" feel.

While it was breaking kayfabe, it was 'still real to some".

MMA however, isn't fixed, it's 100% legit and THAT"S why it's on top of the market.

You say it's an advantage for the E to be able to fix their results, I say it's a disadvantage. The NFL wouldnt be a success without it being real without fixes. Same with MMA, MLB, NBA... even Nascar for christ almighty does better on tv than E and TNA.

Real is always better than fixed. (Also a big reason why TV LOVES reality TV... the sense of realism is soooo much better than pre-planned results).

I disagree Johnny.

No, actually, real isn't better than fixed for one simple reason:

In a fixed fight, the guy the people want to win can always win. In a real fight, if the guy that you root for gets his ass kicked, tough shit for you. In a fixed fight/feud, eventually the hero is going to win in the end and the villain is going to get what's coming to him, which rewards the audiences investment in the story.

You can create drama and properly pay it off. That's the advantage of all forms of storytelling, which is what wrestling is primarily about.

That's the main advantage pro wrestling has always had an always will have over any legitimate sport.

Also, people watch TV, movies, etc. to ESCAPE reality. You know why? Cause reality sucks. Reality is working day after day at a boring, go-nowhere job and lounging around the house. Reality is tedium.

The REAL reason TV executives love Reality TV so much isn't because it's interesting (because let's face it, it's NOT), it's because its cheap. You don't have to pay for writers or actors or sets or any of the expenses that go into producing a fantasy TV show, and that means more money in the TV execs. pockets.

That's why you indulge in fantasy. Because you create something that looks real, sounds real & feels real without it actually being real. That's the whole reason those angles you mentioned with Austin/McMahon and the NWO worked. You BELIEVED they were real, but they weren't. That's what suspension of disbelief IS.

The fact that it's real isn't why UFC is successful or it probably would've been a big success right out the gate. The fact that UFC does pro wrestling better than pro wrestling is what really makes it such a big deal today.

[Drama Queen]

Here is what I want to know though...

ok, so we've gona back and forth about the prestige or worth of the titles, and how the scene is changing because the fans are changing. I can accept pretty much most of what you had to say on that... but as a bsuiness decision, why not go after BOTH audiences?

You say that this tournament will either increase ratings or not effect them at all. Ok... so why not have Abyss beat RVD since they know he is taking time off... then have a tournament for #1 contender spot? Would that have lost the ADD fans? No. But taking the route they are taking IS driving away wrestling fans.

Fine they want to gether new fans, but this does not mean they have to continously stick their middle finger up at their original fans. I mean seriously it seems like Russo or whoever comes up with the hair-brained schemes has no other agenda than to piss people off.

Vacating a title needlessly is a stupid stupid fucking thing to do and you cannot tell me it will gain more fans than it loses. A tournament for top contender would draw as much as a tournament for a vacated title (especially if the fans are as ADD as you say they are, then they won't care what the tournament is for anyway)

[Gary]

Abyss defending the title at No Surrender, and having the finals for a number 1 contender match gives you two guaranteed main events right there.

[Joey WARPED]

Having RVD successfully retain the title against Abyss, then be put over by Hogan as being the best, only to get beat down, get injured, and be forced to vacate the title is better for the current angle. Had RVD lost the title, the beatdown on the 'former champ' wouldn't had been as big of a deal, but now it is, and we need to crown a new champion. Also, why would Fourtune's hitman or whatever Abyss is be a suitable World Champion? Wouldn't the 'main guy' (whoever that's going to be) in Fourtune be a better pick for their leader and champion? Given, Abyss could've been given that role, but I don't really want to see Abyss be the champion...

[The Dudester]

Here is what I want to know though...

ok, so we've gona back and forth about the prestige or worth of the titles, and how the scene is changing because the fans are changing. I can accept pretty much most of what you had to say on that... but as a bsuiness decision, why not go after BOTH audiences?

You say that this tournament will either increase ratings or not effect them at all. Ok... so why not have Abyss beat RVD since they know he is taking time off... then have a tournament for #1 contender spot? Would that have lost the ADD fans? No. But taking the route they are taking IS driving away wrestling fans.

Fine they want to gether new fans, but this does not mean they have to continously stick their middle finger up at their original fans. I mean seriously it seems like Russo or whoever comes up with the hair-brained schemes has no other agenda than to piss people off.

Vacating a title needlessly is a stupid stupid fucking thing to do and you cannot tell me it will gain more fans than it loses. A tournament for top contender would draw as much as a tournament for a vacated title (especially if the fans are as ADD as you say they are, then they won't care what the tournament is for anyway)

BecauseI can only assume the thought process of the tournament is that the winner of the tournament wins the prize, thus making the tournament much more meaningful as a way to elevate the importance of the title, and the champ. (Not sure if this is the thought process as Im not in Orlando) but it would be how I see it.

To me, a tournament in wrestling should be something grand All too common it's just a tool as I've seen tourney's over every title possible, and some not even for titles. A tournament should (and i mean should although not alaways is) should have the meaning that Playoffs have, or the World Cup, or something where whoever the winner is.. is the champion.

It can work both ways, but to me I'd rather have a tournament winner be #1, not #2 in hopes to face #1. Not right or wrong, just preference.

[The Dudester]

Ratings dropped to .97... so I admit I was wrong.

[Drama Queen]

Funnily enough it wasn't a bad show...wrestlin g wise at least. My issues with it still stand but there was decent wrestling... not that that has ever been their problem anyway I suppose.

[Triple B]

TNA has never had an issue with putting on good matches.  Outside their Women's Division in the last 6 months, they've ALWAYS had presentable matches in the ring, baring a few instances here or there.  But they have never been able to book a match, write a storyline, build a feud, or STICK with something very well, and that's their problem.  MCMG/Beer Money should have been the main event send home moment, and some FOLLOW UP this week.  They've built up a Kurt Angle angle for months that is now dead.  They show RVD murdered on TV, but can't show Jeff Hardy's ass crack.  They announce the Top 8 people in the Rankings will be in a tournament, then proceed to put people NOT in the Top 8 in the tournament.  They also book FOUR FACES to advance, with NO heels getting ahead.  They talk about how Lethal is one of the "next big things" then job him out every week.  AJ says he's gonna defend the TV Title every week, and then randomly stops.  They say that Angle isn't going to lose, or retire until he wins the belt.  So... you just gave away who;s gonna win the tournament.  They booked a part time wrestler who hadn't been on TV in 5 years to win their World Belt, so that he can just leave cause he's bored and not job to someone on the way out.  They give away all these gimmick matches, which are meant to be at the END Of a feud, not starting it.

If the rankings meant ANYTHING, they'd just book the #1 against the #2 and let them have a one off match.  There.  Done.

They say that the ECW show is an "Last get together" and... then.... hire half of them and book them to get their asses kicked by Fortune.  You've got Nash talking about how he loves the business, when he's actually played a character for years now that is ONLY there for $$$. 

The booking it stupid.  The storylines are stupid and just change week to week.  The writing is horrible.  Reaction is a crappy show trying to act like a business that has already been exposed is no longer "fake" but then have "shoot" interviews all the time to talk about fucking phone calls that only 2 people in the world were privy to 10  years ago. 

TNA... will never.... ever.... EVER compete with the WWE at ANY level.  Ever.  So long as they have the current writing and booking teams floating around, including Bischoff and Hogan.  Only a COMPLETE revamp of that portion of their show, and then having someone sit down and outline what they want to do and craft things MONTHS if not YEARS in advance will give them a shot.  You can't build new stars with booking that is only looking out a week or two.  You have to set that up for months.  They don't do that, cause they're the stupidest booking team in the history of wrestling. 

[The Dudester]

TNA defender is here.....



and I can't argue with B's post at all.

[Conor]

I've only seen the first half of the show so far, but my thoughts as I watched it:

The Hardy/Abyss brawl seemed to go on forever. I really liked that profile video of Magnus. He came across as quite likeable, though isn't he supposed to be a heel? I don't know, I think if we saw a little more of his real life personality he could be a popular face.

I give Rob Terry some credit for the nice spin kick, but if he's not on the gas I'd be very surprised. I didn't like how they didn't promote any of the matches. Not even Tenay and Taz seemed to know who was coming up next. I guess there's the thought process there that says people will tune in just in case their favourite star appears, but you could just say who's gonna be there and guarantee the audience.

I don't know if I like being called an asshole by Ken Anderson every week.

Who shot that promo with the Machine Guns? I couldn't see shit! What was the point of that? They're the Tag Team Champions - I want to see them perfectly framed and lit, their titles perched comfortably over their shoulders.

The Beautiful People aren't as attractive as I remember and I really don't give a shit who's under the biker helmet, even though we all know it's Tara.

I like the group Fortune, but I don't like Ric Flair overshadowing everybody. I applauded Mick Foley just for telling the audio crew to cut Ric's mike. Also, I might have taken Tommy Dreamer's promo about how it's time to think about the future if he hadn't spent last month promoting a reunion of broken down wrestlers who are a decade past their prime.

Kurt Angle's "I'll retire if I lose" thing only works if he actually loses in the end. Which could happen at No Surrender, sure, but at this point the angle is so forgettable I'm not sure anyone truly cares.

I'll watch the rest of the show tonight, hopefully it'll be decent. The matches have been good, of course, but the vignettes haven't been very entertaining.

[! JDM The Professional !]

I've only seen the first half of the show so far, but my thoughts as I watched it:

The Hardy/Abyss brawl seemed to go on forever. I really liked that profile video of Magnus. He came across as quite likeable, though isn't he supposed to be a heel? I don't know, I think if we saw a little more of his real life personality he could be a popular face.

I give Rob Terry some credit for the nice spin kick, but if he's not on the gas I'd be very surprised. I didn't like how they didn't promote any of the matches. Not even Tenay and Taz seemed to know who was coming up next. I guess there's the thought process there that says people will tune in just in case their favourite star appears, but you could just say who's gonna be there and guarantee the audience.

I don't know if I like being called an asshole by Ken Anderson every week.

Who shot that promo with the Machine Guns? I couldn't see shit! What was the point of that? They're the Tag Team Champions - I want to see them perfectly framed and lit, their titles perched comfortably over their shoulders.

The Beautiful People aren't as attractive as I remember and I really don't give a shit who's under the biker helmet, even though we all know it's Tara.

I like the group Fortune, but I don't like Ric Flair overshadowing everybody. I applauded Mick Foley just for telling the audio crew to cut Ric's mike. Also, I might have taken Tommy Dreamer's promo about how it's time to think about the future if he hadn't spent last month promoting a reunion of broken down wrestlers who are a decade past their prime.

Kurt Angle's "I'll retire if I lose" thing only works if he actually loses in the end. Which could happen at No Surrender, sure, but at this point the angle is so forgettable I'm not sure anyone truly cares.

I'll watch the rest of the show tonight, hopefully it'll be decent. The matches have been good, of course, but the vignettes haven't been very entertaining.

So forgettable I'm not sure anyone truly cares? I fucking do along with the other TNA fans.

Angle has honestly been one of the highlights of TNA for myself in the past year. Really, for you to say that is completely out of context and shows you haven't payed allot of attention to TNA prior.

His feud with wolfe was awesome

His cage match against Ken Anderson was one of the best matches I have seen in a long time

Not sure if you watched his match against AJ Styles, but it was brilliant.


Sorry if I sound a bit harsh, but I really don't think it is a fair statement in the slightest to say he is forgettable and no one would truly care if he retired.

Regards,

JDM