ESPN, World Cup, The US

[Adam Wrong]

Remember the shock when russia took gold in basketball?

I am only bringing up valid points Bryan while you continually refer to history and asia... pretty limited argument don't you think?

Hell we have next to zero snow fall and still participate in the winter olympics and take home medals and it still gets wall to wall coverage in the uk.

[Bryan Payne]

Playing a random collection of "stars" on the US team and playing an actual 'team' are vastly different things as England itself is learning from its National Team in the last two world cups.  Unless you think that a non Premier League team  from Spain would have a shot against the winner from the English Premier League.  

And neither is a five year slice of life or to college here.  It doesn't make you an expert in the American psyche anymore than I'm an expert in the German or English one.  We've both been exposed to it and I'd like to think we could have a frank discussion about it without claiming some kind of "special knowledge" because of time spent somewhere.  When you spend time in a country as an adult you bring all your preconceived notions with you and that colors your perspective of what you see.  No more than the idea of spending much of my time on military bases effected mine then.   Where I to judge all Brits by that experience  I would call you all judgmental bullies who sideline in racism as a hobby.   I know better than to judge everyone from that singular experience over those few years.  I played soccer with them however, both on that school's team and with a German youth team, so am I somewhat a good judge of the difference with how we view the game from the earliest level on?  Yeah.  And that view of the game at that level is going to color the perceptions later on too.

[Ian "Wolfie" Trumps]

Playing a random collection of "stars" on the US team and playing an actual 'team' are vastly different things as England itself is learning from its National Team in the last two world cups.  Unless you think that a non Premier League team  from Spain would have a shot against the winner from the English Premier League.

Just watching some of the results from this world cup tells you anything is possible
 

And neither is a five year slice of life going to college.  It doesn't make you an expert in the American psyche anymore than I'm an expert in the German or English one.  We've both been exposed to it and I'd like to think we could have a frank discussion about it without claiming some kind of "special knowledge" because of time spent somewhere.  When you spend time in a country as an adult you bring all your preconceived notions with you and that colors your perspective of what you see.  No more than the idea of spending much of my time on military bases effected mine then.   Where I to judge all Brits by that experience  I would call you all judgmental bullies who sideline in racism as a hobby.   I know better than to judge everyone from that singular experience over those few years.  I played soccer with them however, both on that school's team and with a German youth team, so am I somewhat a good judge of the difference with how we view the game from the earliest level on?  Yeah.  And that view of the game at that level is going to color the perceptions later on too.

I think you vastly underestimate my relationship with American culture and American people and I think I am a better judge on that than someone who will only have a military perspective to make such a judgement on Europeans.

[Bryan Payne]

I think you vastly underestimate my relationship with American culture and American people and I think I am a better judge on that than someone who will only have a military perspective to make such a judgement on Europeans.

I'm sure you do..

Doesn't mean I'm willing to concede that until I see it for myself.  And so far I haven't seen that you really have a grasp on what makes American's tick yet, not on the fundamental level.  All I'm seeing is a continuation of European stereotypes about Americans being regurgitated.... which leads me to believe you brought  that perception with you and allowed that idea to color your perception of the people you met.  Perhaps those you met DID reinforce that stereotype, but it's hardly an accurate picture of a nation as big and diverse as the US as a whole.

[Duckman]

What is the point of this discussion again?  I'm lost here.

Peace

Duckman

[Bryan Payne]

Well, lol, the original point was to have a general discussion about progress of developing interest in the game in the US, and the role of ESPN in pushing it... and why ESPN made the decision to be such an advocate for the game despite the ratings just not being  there.

[Drama Queen]

It feels like it has drifted onto generalizing and insulting Americans to be honest.

Ian has lived here that's one thing and so do I and I still don't completely agree with his point, but at least he is basing it on experience.

Everyone else saying how things are in America, well it's like the immigration thread it's easy for people who don't live here to tell us what we should and should not do about illegal immigration and how much of a problem it is or not.

Of course I used to do the same stereotyping of Americans myself before I moved here.

[Duckman]

That's kind of how I saw it going to be honest DQ.

The simple fact is most European clubs - the major ones - have over 100 years of history behind them.  Teams like Liverpool, Everton, Rangers, Celtic, Barcelona etc have big religious/ethnic backgrounds to them.

Teams like Manchester United, Leeds, Arsenal etc have gone through massive periods of change, reinvention and other major struggles down the years.

These teams and other major teams in Europe came from a place a lot of American sports teams don't come from.  They were there for the working class people.  It wasn't about money - a lot of the time the clubs came about as a result of a group of workers getting together.

I don't know enough about the working class of America to say if a NFL team grew from a team that originated from some factory workers, but from the outside looking in that doesn't seem to be the case - correct me if I'm wrong.

My point is, football is socially ingrained in the majority of European, South American and African countries.  It's more than just a game.  There's religion involved, working class struggles, tribal loyalty, etc etc.  

America are TNA to the rest of the worlds WWE when it comes to football.  We've got decades of history on them, much more ingrained and important roots with our clubs and to be honest they've been trying since the 1970's to get football over in the US and it just hasn't happened.

That's not to say there isn't a market for it.  Rangers and Celtic are due to play a friendly in NYC in July - 70,000 tickets already sold for it due to the ex-pat Scots and Irish that live in that area.

I do believe with the huge latino population that there is a market for football in America, but it's going to take decades to get anywhere near the level of interest, faith, passion and importance that you get in Europe, South America and Africa.  

Look at Japan, they've had the J-League for about 15 odd years now, hosted the World Cup in 2002 and have a huge market for the game but they still talk about a 50 year plan and a 100 year plan to get the game over big time there.

America has been 'serious' about football since 1994 and even then it's been kind of half assed.  It doesn't matter if the USA team are any good at the game, when you're 100 years plus behind the rest of the world, you're always going to struggle to make a lasting impression and become socially ingrained like the rest of the world and football.

That's my take anyway.

Peace

Duckman

[Bryan Payne]

That's kind of how I saw it going to be honest DQ.

The simple fact is most European clubs - the major ones - have over 100 years of history behind them.  Teams like Liverpool, Everton, Rangers, Celtic, Barcelona etc have big religious/ethnic backgrounds to them.

Teams like Manchester United, Leeds, Arsenal etc have gone through massive periods of change, reinvention and other major struggles down the years.

These teams and other major teams in Europe came from a place a lot of American sports teams don't come from.  They were there for the working class people.  It wasn't about money - a lot of the time the clubs came about as a result of a group of workers getting together.

I don't know enough about the working class of America to say if a NFL team grew from a team that originated from some factory workers, but from the outside looking in that doesn't seem to be the case - correct me if I'm wrong.

My point is, football is socially ingrained in the majority of European, South American and African countries.  It's more than just a game.  There's religion involved, working class struggles, tribal loyalty, etc etc.  

America are TNA to the rest of the worlds WWE when it comes to football.  We've got decades of history on them, much more ingrained and important roots with our clubs and to be honest they've been trying since the 1970's to get football over in the US and it just hasn't happened.

That's not to say there isn't a market for it.  Rangers and Celtic are due to play a friendly in NYC in July - 70,000 tickets already sold for it due to the ex-pat Scots and Irish that live in that area.

I do believe with the huge latino population that there is a market for football in America, but it's going to take decades to get anywhere near the level of interest, faith, passion and importance that you get in Europe, South America and Africa.  

Look at Japan, they've had the J-League for about 15 odd years now, hosted the World Cup in 2002 and have a huge market for the game but they still talk about a 50 year plan and a 100 year plan to get the game over big time there.

America has been 'serious' about football since 1994 and even then it's been kind of half assed.  It doesn't matter if the USA team are any good at the game, when you're 100 years plus behind the rest of the world, you're always going to struggle to make a lasting impression and become socially ingrained like the rest of the world and football.

That's my take anyway.

Peace

Duckman

qft.

Thank you for returning the discussion to sanity.

[Adam Wrong]

the discussion wasn't 'insane' at any point Bryan. You and Ian had a who lived where debate and criticised each other for where and how long.

You still can't deny the apathy behind the reasons given though as you wonder why it is getting so much attention for so little viewing figures. I have given you reasons as to why and you are reluctant to accept them

[Bryan Payne]

You haven't given any reasons Adam.  You've given one single reason and we've discussed it to death and you haven't said anything to make a compelling case for it being  the reason the way you insist on calling it.  

One definition of insanity is repeating the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.. by that measure this conversation has qualified as insane.

[Cory]

I think its a mix of the arguments made previously, and sams point.

Its not big in the US, because it's only being a competitive sport since really 1994 with the WC, and then the MLS league, as opposed to the rich history footy has in....well everywhere not north america. And now, it's surly gained much more popularity, but most american's don't give a shit because they're team isn't too too good for them to bandwagon on, and it lacks the quick, action packed violence and/or the historical roots and dominace that football, basketball, and baseball all have in the US.

With the rapidly growing hispanic population and with reports showing in a decade or so hispanics (minorities in general) will continue to grow and grow and take up more of the % of the us population. Arguable, the minorities currently in the US make up a large portion of the footy fans, and that combined with the growing soccer program that the US have, I can only see soccers stock in the United states grow.

[Bryan Payne]

Pretty much Cory.  My main point was that I thought this push by ESPN was too soon before the sport had reached enough popularity to justify an American sports station to devote one of it's channels to ratings oblivion with 24/7 coverage.  And that there was a risk of a backlash effect by trying to force it too soon.

History has played as much a part in the reasons Soccer hasn't spread here, as to why it's spread elsewhere.  Here in the States we rejected everything English down to their favorite drink.. and over the 100 years afterwards went so far with their sports as to rewrite the law as we changed the governmental system too (baseball, American football).  Thus... the 100+ year gap that Sam mentioned.  Just for an example many of the African countries that have become "soccer mad" so to speak... share a European Colonial past... and what did those Europeans bring with them?...  Futbol.    We Americans are a prideful bunch, no one is really disputing that fact, but it has very little to do with why soccer hasn't become as entrenched here as it has in other places. 


Oh and to go back to Sam's post again about how it got started... American Football came more from the top down than from the bottom up, you're right about that.  It started, in an organized fashion, in colleges in the 1860's...  Basketball came much later in the 20th Century to entertain American Football players and keep them in shape...  and baseball is a bastardized version of cricket.   Of the three baseball probably has the more egalitarian roots...during the American Civil War it was played in army camps of both sides... which took it from being mostly a big city game to a national one... as those soldiers took it home with them.

[Cory]

I believe the reason for the push, is as the general...conclusion if you will, of the americans only giving a shit about soccer if they win (as in their huge upset over spain last year) they're in a really easy group, and have very high chances of qualifying for the next round. I tie against a NAME (surly not the quality ahaha) of England is huge for US soccer standards. A HUGE comeback going 2-0 down to Slovenia, who took out Russia (highly talented team) to get into the world cup.

I think they understand the patterns of the us citizens to become patriotic and cheer the shit out of their country if their winning (regardless of sport) and i mean, US is playing very well this tournament.

[Adam Wrong]

First of all I would be careful of defining insanity or utilising any form of mental health reference when discussing a discussion on an internet forum. On that you clearly have no idea.

And Bryan, how about you address one of the many valid points raised towards you. Namely Ian's Lakers question or even name me a sport where the USA have an interest where they are not one of the world's best at it.