1.12

[Gary]

Thats the rating number for last weeks TNA. Now Its almost an entire year (2 weeks for that) since the arrival of Hogan/EB to TNA and honestly..has anything changed? I know Ian doesn't care much ratings, but at the end of the day it measures how many fans are watching and if its about the same number that it did before they arrived into TNA..have they really made, no pun intended, any type of impact? Last year we had AJ Styles vs Samoa Joe vs Chris Daniels ending the year with a great main event..this time we have a guy who is has the chance of going to jail as the Champion, two former WWE cast offs (albeit Anderson is way better in TNA still injury prone) as the number one contenders, AJ Styles relegated to holding the least important Championship, Samoa Joe being underused,  and Daniels fired. What may have seemed as the once again a push for something new last year after the MEM angle ended, is now..like watching an episode of Smackdown. Truth is if any changes have been made to TNA it hasn't been for the better, they ruined or depushed or fired 3 top young guys in Joe, Styles and Daniels, so that Hogan, Eric,Jarret and Abyss could get over. Jeff Hardy who is a ticking time bomb when it comes to drugs as their Champion, a convulted mess of storyline in the "THEY" angle that I think not even Russo knows how it happened..and the ratings..are just the same. If the ratings haven't moved, except for a few weeks when it all started out of curiosity, the experiment failed. They've had one year they could've at least moved up to the 2.2 or 2.3 area and remained there with the time they've had if it was working but it isn't.

[Ian "Wolfie" Trumps]

I don't care much for ratings you are right because WWE is worth a shit ton of money and RAW does over half the ratings it did in the late 90s and WWE is more profitable.

I also don't really give a shit that Joe, Styles and Christopher Daniels (seriously what is the big deal about him) arent in the Main Event because I still believe with TNA you get good wrestling matches, far better than WWE on a weekly basis so your logic of great wrestling main events to me...is just a waste of a comment mate. You get to see Styles and Joe most weeks in action coupled with Jeff Hardy who 4 years ago people liked watching, but because its become popular to hate TNA, now think he cant wrestle...which if you watch one of his matches he still can. You get Anderson who has improved leaps and bounds, Abyss who is probably one of the best big men wrestling in America in both WWE and TNA right now. A great set of Tag Teams, Douglass WIlliams, Kurt Angle, Sting, Mat Morgan, RVD, Jarrett...all these guys are very watchable and put on very watchable matches.

Are some of the storylines shit? Yes they fucking are. I don't like this 'Immortals' thing at all, but then I don't like the seemingly never ending feud between Rey and Alberto, or Kane vs the Undertaker for the 3 billionth time, or pretty much anything John Cena has done like how they have completely dropped and fucked the ball on the Nexus angle which was one of the greatest angles in recent wrestling memory.

The assumption is TNA is making a loss correct? My theory is the addition of guys like Hogan and Bischoff and what not has stopped TNA from tanking. Right now and you can even see it on these boards....MMA is the thing people are jacking their wangs to. Wrestling is dead. Do you know at the end of September RAW was doing a 2.6 and 2.8 in the so called ratings we need to look at? I think it would be far more interesting to look at the ratings for wrestling plummeting in contrast to the rise in MMA ratings and payoffs. That the percentage difference in WWE ratings would be higher loss than that of TNA's that if it would have kept the format and wrestlers it did...probably would have seen insteady of a steady pattern a massive decline in the ratings because people just arent that interested in wrestling anymore.

Like it or not Hogan is a draw, Bischoff is a draw...I am not saying I like either guy, I am just stating an opinion on their ability to do just that. I think if TNA hadn't signed them rather than stability in the ratings, which I still dont think holds a lot of water, they would have fallen off the face of the earth.

[Gary]

But isn't a draw having the ability to bring in more people? Which they aren't. I agree with you on WWE sucking but the point of what I was talking about was the Impact of Hogan and Bischoff in TNA, its never been about whether WWE is better than TNA or not, I know alot of the stuff WWE does sucks but the point of Eric Bischoff and Hogan was about taking TNA to the next level, which they haven't.

[Ian "Wolfie" Trumps]

But isn't a draw having the ability to bring in more people? Which they aren't. I agree with you on WWE sucking but the point of what I was talking about was the Impact of Hogan and Bischoff in TNA, its never been about whether WWE is better than TNA or not, I know alot of the stuff WWE does sucks but the point of Eric Bischoff and Hogan was about taking TNA to the next level, which they haven't.

It is totally to do with WWE sucking because it supports my argument that the wrestling business has nosed dived and interest in it has done the same. If there was still interest in wrestling as a whole and the world wasnt suckling on the MMA tit, I believe that the TNA ratings would be higher because wrestling would still be popular. They have drawn in that in my opinion they have supported a company who's fanbase would have fucked off and left wrestling altogether. Just they haven't doubled something which given wrestling's popularity itself would be very hard to do. I read it everytime Sam or Midas or someone posts about the buyrate of UFC or whatever...thats your wrestling crowd moving over there. WWE's ratings themselves show that.

[Gary]

I meant my argument about TNA that I've made about them, its never been about me thinking WWE is better (I watch WWE out of being used to it and now Miz as Champ, but the rest..meh could give or take) or not, its been that I hate Eric Bischoff and Hogan, and all their hype about how they would take TNA to the next level when they clearly haven't. I agree UFC is taking the WWE fans, which I don't get because at the core they are two different things (fake drama with fake fighting in it vs actual fighting with no drama), and WWE sets the trend of how ratings go for all promotions.

[Kieran King]

What are the WWE ratings now, compared to one year ago? Relatively the same as they were? If that's the case (which I don't know, because I haven't bothered looking) then both TNA and WWE are pretty much succeeding or failing (however you want to look at it) to the same level as they were. If WWE's ratings have fallen over the last year, while TNA's hasn't, then in light of the growing MMA fanbase, I'd say that should be a success for TNA.

Of course, that's if you consider ratings to measure success, which is extremely dubious.

[Ian "Wolfie" Trumps]

I meant my argument about TNA that I've made about them, its never been about me thinking WWE is better (I watch WWE out of being used to it and now Miz as Champ, but the rest..meh could give or take) or not, its been that I hate Eric Bischoff and Hogan, and all their hype about how they would take TNA to the next level when they clearly haven't. I agree UFC is taking the WWE fans, which I don't get because at the core they are two different things (fake drama with fake fighting in it vs actual fighting with no drama), and WWE sets the trend of how ratings go for all promotions.

Your missing my point, I am using WWE and TNA as a joint example of showing the move away from wrestling to MMA. WWE hasnt been able to maintain ratings at the same level TNA has maintained theres. The difference in percentage of ratings over the last year favours TNA. Therefore, I would conclude there has been a massive drop off in wrestling fans watching wrestling programs. TNA hasn't hit the 2.2 or whatever you said because there isnt a fanbase for them to do that as far as I can see regardless if you people think the product is shite or not. I would also argue that having picked up MMA a bit more recently that your comment on 'no drama' is short sighted. MMA packs in the sort of drama that boxing does. The build up to the most recent UFC PPV I watched were GSP won was riddled with drama and excitement, just not a corny version of it or carny version of it wrestling shows. Your basic question is why has TNA not hit the next level in the last year. I dont think they could ever do that based on what wrestling fans are left who havent sad 'fuck this fake shit, I wanna see dudes really smashing each others faces in'. Hell, we are all critics on here of wrestling, all the time, I watched you, Bone and Jag rip on RAW tonight for most of it, only seemingly liking CM PUnk and then get rightly pissed off with his next feud with Cena. That doesnt happen with MMA, people seem excited all the time to watch it, hence its a growing market, not a dying one.

[Gary]

By drama I meant the corny/carny storylines as the difference between UFC and WWE lol but yes I should've said "real drama" for UFC.

[Adam Wrong]

WWE can fuck off on the storyline front but am I not right in thinking that they were doing a 1.2/1/4 prior to Bischoff and Hogan?

[! JDM The Professional !]

this time we have a guy who is has the chance of going to jail as the Champion, two former WWE cast offs (albeit Anderson is way better in TNA still injury prone) as the number one contenders, AJ Styles relegated to holding the least important Championship, Samoa Joe being underused,  and Daniels fired.

Can I just say, Hardy, as much as I hate the cunt, was drawing for TNA when he went in the world title race. Now he can fuck off though, he should have lost the strap.

I am sick of this fucking 'wwe cast offs' bull shit! Seriously, TNA and WWE are the two biggest, well known wrestling companies in America. WWE have double the roster TNA do. Who gives a flying shit if one guy works for WWE, then goes to TNA. Anderson (as you said) has improved so damn much, he is now one of the top top guys. Matt Morgan in WWE was nothing but a young, boring mid carder. TNA have helped him progress in a way WWE never allowed him to. I guarantee if Matt Morgan/Anderson continues to rise in TNA and has a nice title reign, and the time comes for them to go to WWE again (which I'm sure one of them will do, people will be saying 'oh, finally they return to WWE' rather than 'Look at these guys that TNA Made'. It's all about being a WWE cast off rather than being a wrestler, a talent, someone who fans can enjoy watching. There's way too much of this 'whaa whaa whaa WWE cast off' bullshit!

Finally, the T.V title has been the most exciting thing in TNA the last two months. Having AJ with the strap made the prestige on the title climb fast. Now, his feud with Doug is the best thing going on in TNA at the moment. Calling it the 'least important championship' is a load of shit. It has become one of the highlights of TNA, whether you like it or not.

Done ranting.

Regards,

JDM

[Triple B]

There is a really large REASON why you can't just say "Ratings don't matter" because they do.

They are the barometer in which advertisement revenue comes in.

Now, in some instances a show gets a portion of the revenue.  WWE used to get that with their original USA deal.  When they went to SPIKE, they negotiated for more cash, but no portion of the ad money.  I honestly don't solidly recall if they did the same when going to USA, but I'm PRETTY sure that they don't.  TNA has a similar deal where they dont get that cash from the ad space.

However...

When contracts come up, or TV Execs make decisions on where to place a show, those ratings come into effect.  ESPECIALLY certain demographics. 

You can say that WWE sucks, and to us that's true.  However, it's very apparent that they just gave up on the demographic of people going to MMA, and have focused on younger audiences.  TNA hasn't done that.  They've, in fact, gone the opposite, trying to infuse every failed and successful gimmick and storyline in the last 20 years into the last year's worth of shows, and tried to portray themselves as more "real" than WWE.  You COULD make an argument that rather than competing with WWE, they've been trying to bring back MMA fans (See Jarrett's angle as proof) and not succeeding. 

The arguement that WWE has lost MORE viewers over the years is correct, but also look at the percentage of wrestling fans WATCHING wrestling.  Wrestling fans didn't leave WWE.  They left wrestling. 

Also, I would submit, that TNA would not be "in the shitter" without Hogan and Bish.  If they had continued on like they had, they were trending UPWARD in ratings, not downward.  There is no evidence pre-Hogan that they were on a downward spiral.  Hogan didn't come in to "save" them from destruction, he was supposed to take them over the next hump moving up.  They have failed in that goal.  They overestimated the drawing power of Hogan and his ilk, and are now left with some very unreliable and questionable talent at the top of the card while destroying the talent that they already had.  Looking back at the year, if they had stayed consistent with their ratings the whole time, this would be a different discussion.  However, they lost over HALF their audience and are just now getting that audience back in the span of 1 year.  Imagine if shows like X-Files, CSI, Law and Order, The Daily Show or any other show you can think of lost over HALF it's audience in a matter of weeks?  TNA is lucky that they didn't get yanked off the air.  I would say getting thrown off Mondays is as close as you can get.   They're lucky that they are on SPIKE.

I WANTED TNA to succeed.  But unless they do some moving and shaking at the top SOONER rather than later, they are NOT going to be in a good position when their TV Contracts come up.  I could very well see a scenario a year from now when Hogan/Bish's contracts come up, they leave and badmouth the company, and at the SAME time I believe their TV deals come up as well with Spike.  You could see a scenario where they lose those 2 names, have Jeff Hardy tossed in jail, and lose TV all in a short time frame.

For people looking for competition or a GOOD alternative to WWE, I think ROH is your best bet.  If they could get a major financial backer, or hooked on to at least a better channel than HDNet, I think THAT is your best bet for a #2 promotion in the USA.  TNA has had it's chance for 10 years now, and has pissed it away time and time again.

[Gary]

Can I just say, Hardy, as much as I hate the cunt, was drawing for TNA when he went in the world title race. Now he can fuck off though, he should have lost the strap.

I am sick of this fucking 'wwe cast offs' bull shit! Seriously, TNA and WWE are the two biggest, well known wrestling companies in America. WWE have double the roster TNA do. Who gives a flying shit if one guy works for WWE, then goes to TNA. Anderson (as you said) has improved so damn much, he is now one of the top top guys. Matt Morgan in WWE was nothing but a young, boring mid carder. TNA have helped him progress in a way WWE never allowed him to. I guarantee if Matt Morgan/Anderson continues to rise in TNA and has a nice title reign, and the time comes for them to go to WWE again (which I'm sure one of them will do, people will be saying 'oh, finally they return to WWE' rather than 'Look at these guys that TNA Made'. It's all about being a WWE cast off rather than being a wrestler, a talent, someone who fans can enjoy watching. There's way too much of this 'whaa whaa whaa WWE cast off' bullshit!

Finally, the T.V title has been the most exciting thing in TNA the last two months. Having AJ with the strap made the prestige on the title climb fast. Now, his feud with Doug is the best thing going on in TNA at the moment. Calling it the 'least important championship' is a load of shit. It has become one of the highlights of TNA, whether you like it or not.

Done ranting.

Regards,

JDM

1. The WWE cast off argument: Before they arrived they had given the ball to homegrown TNA talent, since they arrived. They took the belt from AJ pushed the others down and the central point of TNA storylines have been guys from WWE, or fuck even ECW. They fall into the same pattern WCW did, were they took former WWE talents concentrated on them and forgot about their own guys apart from Sting and Flair, and Flair was treated like shit for most of that time. Instead of TNA using those WWE guys to build the present and future of TNA (except maybe Angle and they did that with him before Hogan/EB arrived), they just have them feud amongst themselves, trade the belt in booking that makes no sense (RVD vacates belt, tournament, rvd arrives before tournament even ends, etc), and keeping guys who should've been the top guys (samoa joe, styles) down a few steps below. Same formula that they did in WCW, keep the top guys happy, leave the midcard as is, and just use x-division/cruiserweight to carry the work load.

2. The TV title is the least important title: Yes AJ may be having a great feud with Doug Williams over that Championship..now. But before 2 months ago it was just a stupid belt, just because a feud is hot doesn't make it great title especially for a belt that will probably have a new name in 6 months and has been devalued beyond recognition. Example the WWE tag titles, during the JeriShow run the tag titles were fucking hot, a year later? They mean shit. Styles should be main eventing PPVs or in the upper midcard, not holding a belt that meant nothing.

[Black Death]

did that belt change names three times in the last two years ?

[Jonny Worldbeater]

did that belt change names three times in the last two years ?

You mean the belt that Booker T made up, Eric Young turned into the Global title for his short-lived International heel group that wouldn't defend it against Americans or on America soil... In America. And then at some point AJ got it and made it the TV title because...

[Black Death]

You mean the belt that Booker T made up, Eric Young turned into the Global title for his short-lived International heel group that wouldn't defend it against Americans or on America soil... In America. And then at some point AJ got it and made it the TV title because...

yeah