burning the Koran

[Judge]

I look at it like this:

If the white house can't cover up the president getting a blowjob from an intern, how can they be expected to cover up something of this magnitude.

[Mark Mania]

I thought we had all come to terms with the fact that Barney Green was the cause of everything bad that has ever happened in this world, including 9/11

[Triple B]

I feel dumber having read that.  I should have listened to my better judgement.

Prepare to get smarter, Jesse!

Who said buildings toppled over onto it's side? It certainly, doesn't collapse in form of a controlled demonition, though. There's been artichects who've explained how the tower should have fell.  It collapsed in the same manner the first two did. If large buildings can collapse by fires set a muck; the demolition companies should just save a whole lot of time and money, by taking the joint down with a bic lighter. As as I know, no building has ever collapsed due to fires. Ever. Anyways, Larry Silverstein admitted to ''pulling'' the building down. I'm aware of the offical ''debunk'' claim that it was taken out of context but again, almost too good to be true--considering, accounts from some firefighters saying that they were warned beforehand of the collapse of WTC 7. Related to this, is the nanonthermite found in the dust samples and eyewitness/video accounts of what looks to be thermite pooring from the building, while on fire.

You mean the red'grey chips found by a couple guys who wrote the Jones/Harrit/Roberts paper, who then say this is proof positive of "nanotermite?"  Yeah... that's rust inhibiting primer paint with a Kaolinite base.   And after they were called out on that?  They then altered it to say that the termite was placed in paint and sprayed all over the floors and trusses.  The problem with that?  You can't evenly distribute the thermite on the trusses to allow for a controlled demo.  And when you atomize thermite into a spray form... it goes everyone.  You would have explosive dust EVERYWHERE in that building.  And on people. You mean to tell me nobody blew up after lighting a cigarette on break?  The problem with most of the 9/11 Conspiracies is that you have to jump to ALOT of conclusions.  You have no direct proof of almost all this stuff. 

There's also been MORE architects that have explained how it SHOULD have fallen.  History Channel just had a "9/11 Debunked" special on, where they ran down almost every single conspiracy theories out there.  Rather than attempting to argue a point at hand, you toss out "Maybe we should take down buildings with a bic lighter."  There is a HUGE difference between a couple 100 story buildings falling on top of a building that has SEVEN fuel sources in it to feed fires, and trying to burn down a building.  There was over 43,000 gallons of diesel fuel,  being fed through pressurized lines to generators throughout the building.  The problem with 9/11 Conspiracy Theorists is that they talk like a fire in a room "took down" the whole building.  Sure, we've all seen the pictures of one side, where video cameras were:



See a large CHUNK of the building missing?  All the fire?  How about a home movie, and the shot everyone sees of the collapse?

Now you're going to talk about how the Lease Holder, admitted that he "pulled" the building.  Larry Silverstein isn't a demolitions expert.  And when he said that... he was talking to the Fire Chief.  So... the Fire Chief went in there and blew up the building?  No.   Larry Silverstein, repeatedly, has said that he was referring to pulling out the firemen inside.  Demolitions Experts do NOT refer to "pulling" a building when they demo it.   You what they say "pulling" is?  They say it's pulling a building with cables for support or assistance in a demo. 

The other problem with all of this, is that Conspiracy Theorists only focus on the places that helps their claims.  They talk about WTC 1, 2 and 7.  Let's take a look at what buildings were damaged, first off...



Look at that list of buildings that collapsed, were damaged, and destroyed.  How about an epicenter of the damage that the buildings came down from:



Look at the devastation that occurred several blocks all around.  Look at all the buildings affected.  On that graphic, look at where all the cladding and steel beams were found BLOCKS away.  Video was not from within the blast center of WTC 1 and 2 when looking at WTC 7.  It was farther north, away from where the MOST damage had occurred.

Then of course, we have the famous report of the collapse... before it collapsed. The popular mechanics shill crowd shrugged it off as yet another misunderstanding, and that the news reporter and entire media channel would have to be in on the attack. Wrong. Again and this goes back to other threads I have posted it; the media is a governments propaganda channel. They often make reports based off government press releases. It's as simple as they spilt the beans 45 minutes early. Whoops.

And some kid posted that Chris Benoit had died on his Wikipedia page when he didn't show for the ECW PPV too.  What AMERICAN media outlet... and not some podink newspaper in bumblefuck Idaho, but MAJOR network in America, said the WTC collapsed prior to it happening?  My guess is that ANYONE who didn't have video feeds of the towers, could have been told the wrong thing, sure.  But all it takes is a video feed, which almost EVERYONE had at that point, to see that the towers were still standing.  Did some overseas channels get it wrong at first?  Yeah, especially in Asia.  But I just saw a "news" report from China that depicted Rubort Murdoch as a man shark.

And I agree with you about giving the government too much credit. Bush didn't orcastrate the attack anymore then he could orcastrate his way out of a paper bag. Neither are the government so slick, they could pull an event like this without a hitch--because by god, they're plenty. Some would aruge that the government wasn't involved; and rather, the intelligence services carried out a large part of the operation. I don't know. I am, however, not sold that it was soley nineteen cave men with box cutters. Sorry, man.

Yes, they were all cave men.  Ignore the fact that almost all of them came from rich and affluent families.  Ignore the fact that many had fought the Soviets in Afgahnistan.  And ignore the fact that almost all were college educated and some had already logged time in planes and had licenses.  You also ignore the concept of surprise.  You really think anyone was expecting anyone to take over the plane?  The doors weren't secure as they are now to the pilot's cabin, and to normal American passengers, they took at face value that they were told a bomb was on board and to sit down.  TODAY... you'd have a revolt on the plane, easily.  Back then?  Not so much.  And even THEN, after the first 3 planes hit, and the passengers found out, they took down the plane in Shanksville.  Pretty good for a bunch of fat Americans with NO weapons, huh?

At the VERY least; these attacks were allowed to happen. I'd say, the proof behind the scenes so to speak heavily outweighs the case that actually played out infront of our eyes. And I'm not an artichect but if six of the ten commissioners smell a cover up, then I'm probably not as out to lunch as you think I am.  More then anything, I'm 100% sold that the offical story, is a cover up for SOMETHING; how deep it is, I guess will come out in twenty+ years from now when it's declassified.

What proof?  You say that there's proof that they let it happen, but then say that in 20 years when stuff is declassified we'll know the truth.  You can have an opinion that there's more to it, sure.  But you can't say that you KNOW that the government did it, or allowed it to happen just because you read a couple nutty websites and watched Loose Change's three different incarnations.

Personally, I agree with you that we don't know it all.  However, I find it MUCH more plausible that the Bush Administration did not want to volunteer information, cause we'd find out that our "Wartime President" was too busy branding cattle to worry about his Presidential Briefs warning that this stuff could happen.  I don't think they helped, or let it happen.  But I think they dropped the ball and don't want people to know until most of these people die off, to avoid the shame.  And I DO think that they used 9/11 to get advantages in going to war, and helping friendly companies.  But there are MORE than enough honest, good people out there, even in the Bush Administration, that would have said or done something.  If the "architect" of the Gay Bills that got Bush Elected in 2004 can come out a few years later as being gay, I would assume someone would feel guilty enough to fess up or point fingers.  Conspiracies fall apart when there's too many people involved.

I expect a speech to go a little something like this, ''We aren't the same nation we were thirty some odd, long years ago...''; and what the hell, nobody will REALLY care.

Yeah, just like nobody cares and JFK to this day?

Anyways, kudos for a civil reply. I'm still waiting for the typical; YOU R CRAZY CONSPIRACY THEORIST, TIN FOIL HAT, ARR, ARR, ARR; reply, the media treats ANYTHING that goes against their ''offical'' bullshit story they put out to which the minion followers are then programmed to repeat.

No.  I think that alot of people can't deal with what happened.  And I think they want people to blame.  I think they want to look someone in the eye and say "You did this to us!"  And I think that people just want to be told what to think.  You're no different.  I think that Alex Jones wants to make money, so he creates a website and tries to put fear into people.  Fear that the government is tossing planes at people.  Fear that Muslims are taking over the country.  Fear that black people are taking jobs away from white people due to Affirmative Action.  Fear that illegal immigrants are taking jobs away from white people.  It helps them sell books and movies and DVDs.  Not all of it is crap.  Some questions NEED to be raised.  But when the question is answered in a plausible manner, you have to move on.  If people put the  effort into wanting to find Bin Laden and put a bullet in his head that they did trying to tell us that the WTC being hit was a hoax and that BILLIONS Of people were duped into thinking planes hit buildings, we'd have killed most of Al Qaeda by now.  You're not a nut.  Misguided perhaps.

And just a personal question if you or rather anyone choose to reply. Do you think there has ever been a staged attack on US soil--beyond the one's I have listed to be admitted in declassification? And if not, why would they stop despite it being proven to be an effective war-game strategy, time and time again?

No, I do not believe that the American Government has flown planes into buildings on purpose prior to this, no.

[RickRampage]

Here is the deal, a fire did not cause the collapse of the World Trade Center buildings. What cause the collapse is the the support structure on the higher floors failed because their was a FUCKING Plane that had destroyed part of the support structure. They failed eventually because the weight of the above floors became too much and when it collapsed, it destroyed the rest of the support structures on the higher floors, which then directly put all the pressure on the lower floors in mere seconds. All the extra weight that wasn't supported then caused an instantaneous failure of the rest of the support structures of the buildings, and thus caused the collapse that we all witnessed on 9/11.

Now, you can not believe everything you see on the internet. Now, believe I can say with almost 99% certainty that no one here has actually gotten their hands on actual unclassified documents that prove the US has created false terror attacks on themselves. You can show me stuff on the internet all you want, but until I see an actual document in my hands that is notarized then I will not believe any of it. People need to use common sense sometimes, stop believing everything you see on television and the internet and because an intellectual person for the first time in your life.

Now, I understand people's want to have this be a conspiracy theory; I really do. It means we don't have anything to fear and the world isn't all that scary. It means that the Taliban don't want to kill all Americans; it means that we really shouldn't worry about the fact that Iranian Companies that we give money to, have been paying Taliban members for killing US Soldiers. It means we shouldn't worry about the fact that Iran is making nuclear weapons, and their number one enemy is the US; and the same with North Korea. It's a scary world out there, and people want to be naive and ignorant to it all, and I can understand that; but please be naive and ignorant on your own and don't try to bring the rest of us down with you. If you want to believe that the world isn't so bad, alright, fine, I get it; just stop spreading this bullshit to the people who have a fucking brain.

[Triple B]

I didn't even bring that point up, cause Level One didn't talk about the steel beams and how "No Highrise Ever Fell cause of Fire" arguement.

The only LARGE plane that I am aware of that has actually HIT a skyscraper was a military plane hitting the Empire State Building back in the 40s.  The difference between the two?  The Empire State Building is built differently, and I'm PRETTY sure that the jet fuel of today is ALOT different than the plane fuel used in a propeller airplane 70 years ago.

The jets were increased in speed to maximize the damage, and blew off all the fire retardant on those levels.  I'm not a structural engineer, but all you have to do is play Jenga once or twice and know that if you blow out enough of the structure in the middle of the tower, it's gonna come down. 

The other thing is... people say that steel doesn't melt until it gets above 2000 degrees or so.  That is correct.  But it loses half of it's strength at 1100 degrees.  The fires in the WTC were burning at around 1400 degrees.  Just using logic alone tells you that if you take out HALF the strength of a 100 story building, it's gonna come down eventually.  Nobody wants to mention the fact that WTC 1 was leaning just before it fell.

[Hondo]

What the heck's all this crap?? For God's sake, someone tell a penis joke already!

[Level-One]

I had a lengthy reply, ready to post; and the boards timed out on me. I spent over an hour typing this up.. Sigh. I'll get to it later. For now though, this is a reply I made in a two parts  to Triple B and Rick, specifically for Rick--due to length.

Here is the deal, a fire did not cause the collapse of the World Trade Center buildings. What cause the collapse is the the support structure on the higher floors failed because their was a FUCKING Plane that had destroyed part of the support structure. They failed eventually because the weight of the above floors became too much and when it collapsed, it destroyed the rest of the support structures on the higher floors, which then directly put all the pressure on the lower floors in mere seconds. All the extra weight that wasn't supported then caused an instantaneous failure of the rest of the support structures of the buildings, and thus caused the collapse that we all witnessed on 9/11.

This tells me you probably didn't read half of what I wrote. Perhaps, not even half of what Tripe B wrote; because your citing the collapse to the plane crash which is ESTABLISHED had nothing to do with the collapse itself. That's why we're talking WTC 7. Your explanation, is litterly, off of television. Are you even aware of WTC 7? I can tell that at the very least, Triple B also took a look into a more detailed explanation of the said events, even if I'm not sold on it.

Now, you can not believe everything you see on the internet. Now, believe I can say with almost 99% certainty that no one here has actually gotten their hands on actual unclassified documents that prove the US has created false terror attacks on themselves. You can show me stuff on the internet all you want, but until I see an actual document in my hands that is notarized then I will not believe any of it. People need to use common sense sometimes, stop believing everything you see on television and the internet and because an intellectual person for the first time in your life.

After you just spit the offical bullshit story, right off the television itself, this is irony. Anyways, you can save yourself a lot of time looking up the pesky documents that you seem to believe, don't exist. How about the government openly ADMITS Operations Northwoods/Gulf of Tonkin were STAGED event? How much common sense does one really need? There's no debate on this.

Now, I understand people's want to have this be a conspiracy theory; I really do. It means we don't have anything to fear and the world isn't all that scary. It means that the Taliban don't want to kill all Americans; it means that we really shouldn't worry about the fact that Iranian Companies that we give money to, have been paying Taliban members for killing US Soldiers. It means we shouldn't worry about the fact that Iran is making nuclear weapons, and their number one enemy is the US; and the same with North Korea. It's a scary world out there, and people want to be naive and ignorant to it all, and I can understand that; but please be naive and ignorant on your own and don't try to bring the rest of us down with you. If you want to believe that the world isn't so bad, alright, fine, I get it; just stop spreading this bullshit to the people who have a fucking brain.

I think I'm going to throw up. Yes, you got me. That's exactly why we love our conspiracy theories. It's great knowing, that it isn't a foriegn, rogue, terrorist group running around as a threat to my saftey/freedom; but the government and institutions that are here in theory, to keep me safe. Yes, it's Iran I need to worry about buliding nuclear weapons (not even true) not the fact that U.S invades countries, kills, women and children and leaves Depleted Uranium in their wake. It's the Taliban I need to worry about taking my freedoms; not the body scanners, patriot act, wire taps and illegal torture. It's Taliban you all need to worry about pulling you over and labeling you a terrorist because you carry around a pocket U.S constitution and a raul paul bumper sticker on the rear end of the car--or rather as they like to call it, extremist parapheneila.

Yes, take all my freedoms in the name of the Taliban, please!

[Triple B]

Like I said in my point, I agree that they USED this to do alot of stuff.  The Patriot Act is a horrendous trampling of our freedoms, and utterly destroyed Habius Corpus.  And for the 7 years afterwards of Bush's Administration, every time they did something they didn't want people to know and criticize them about, they'd cite "National Security" and call people who questioned things un-American.

You... and EVERYONE... SHOULD question things.  You SHOULD question if they took action.  You SHOULD question what who knew about what.  But in almost EVERYTHING... the simplest explanation is almost ALWAYS the true story.  That's why I think that Bush dropped the ball, capitalized on the tragedy and has covered up the fact that he was asleep behind the wheel.

However...

Rick is correct in that, we MOSTLY created Osama Bin Laden.  We created Saddam too.  Back in the late 70s and early 80s, we funded any 2-bit crackpot that would fight the soviets for us.  That's where most of the Taliban got their training, from CIA operatives back then.  Then, after we helped them topple regimes and funded their wars, we walked out and acted like nothing happened. 

Over in The VWF, we had a big discussion of "where were you on 9/11".  I said this:

I was on my way to work.  I listen to alot of talk radio, and I was listening to WLS 890 AM as I was driving.  I started at 8, so I was driving in the car when the first plane hit.  They came on and were talking about it like it was an accident.  They then started to talk about how it was a hijacked plane, and I sat in the car listening, late to work now, for a few more minutes when the second tower was hit.  At Menards (where I was the Building Materials Manager) we had a display TV from our electronics department in the front as you walked in, playing some random DVD.  It was playing Ghostbusters.  I came in, and told the SM and the rest of the staff, who happened to be at my desk looking for me, what happened.  They were all in shock.  I asked Denis (The SM) to change the TV in the front to the news, and we did.

I started out the day, and got everyone on track to work.  I walked over to the TV, where a steady group of a dozen people were always standing, to see what was going on, and as I walked up the first tower fell.  People were crying, and the Front End manager turned her head and just hugged me for about 10 minutes.  I helped a lady at the entrance door with something since I was there, came back to the TV and the second tower fell.  Corporate, at that point, sent out an e-mail for everyone to turn their radios on the store from music to the news, and if anyone wanted to leave work they could.

I worked out my day, left for the evening and went home.  I got a call from a buddy of mine who was still in the military, saying that he was shipping out to go help at Ground Zero.  I asked if there was anything I could do, and he said lots of people were going to help.  I immediately called up the store manager and told him I wanted to leave that night to go help, thinking if I drove non-stop I could be there the next afternoon.  He said he couldn't give me the time off.  I pondered seeing if I could get back in the army, decided fate was telling me no, and I didn't.

I watched almost everything the History channel had today.  The footage that normal people had, that they put together in the 102 Minutes That Changed The World, really got to me.  I don't cry, but... I got chocked up at more than a few points.  I have watched almost every 9/11 Conspiracy movie out there, I watched Moore's movie, and I've watched almost everything I can get my hands on about it.  I watched the Flight 93 movie, and the Frontline one, and the one that the History Channel did too.

I don't think that the government purposely let it happen, or did it.  I don't think Bush is that smart, to be honest.  But I, to this day, feel extremely let down by America.  I think that we ALL were let down, because they knew SOMETHING was going on, but agencies didn't talk to each other, and Bush was too busy playing on his ranch to care.  I hate how people like Guilliani and Cheney and Bush and others have taken this tragedy and tried to profit out of it.  I hate that we have gone overseas and killed thousands of innocent people in our pursuit for the REAL bad guys, of which we haven't had that much luck at getting.  I hate it how some of my friends have went to, and been injured or died in Iraq for a pack of lies.  I hate that Cisco Kid was taken away from us to go over there, and thank God that he's back in the states, at least.  But I'm afraid that he'll have to go back to Afghanistan, which will still be going on in the next few years.

It's one of those moments in history that DOES change everything.  A few months after that,  a couple fighter planes flew right over the store, sending out a sonic boom.  ALL the customers panicked, dropped their stuff where it was and tore out of there, thinking we were under attack.  I recognized the sound, but not many people did.  I hate that it's done that do us as a nation.  I hate that people take this out on ALL Muslims.  I hate that Osama Bin Laden is free or died free.  I hate everything about this.  Our economy, our lives, our freedoms, our infrastructure, and our very souls have not recovered from 9/11.  And I don't think they ever will. 

When Grace is a little older, I'm going to take her to Freedom Plaza and the Statue of Liberty and try to tell her what America was like before all this, and what I hope it'll become one day.  But for now... we're a country of scared racists, who think that everyone with a brown complexion has a suitcase nuke in their hands.

I've watched almost everything you probably have Level-One, and I don't see any conspiracy other than the conspiracy of 19 people to hop on planes and drive them into the heart of Americans who had little to no interest in their problems.

[Alex Smiley]

Amen. Wait, that's not neccessarily a good thing, is it?

[RickRampage]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_Incident

Alright, let's talk. Now, after reading through both of these; I'll start with the more interesting one, Northwood.

Alright, so, declassified documents show that at one time, the CIA and Joint Chiefs of Staff made up some Black Ops mission that would cause domestic terror attacks on US soil so that we could blame it on Cuba and go to War with them. This proposition was never accepted and nothing came of it. So, my theory, a group of jackasses thought it was a good idea, where the majority of sane people in the decision making process didn't. I mean, come on now Level One, can't you do better then that. Hell, look at John McCarthy; the dude was a dumb ass who spread mass hysteria by saying everyone was communist. Eventually the sane people left in the government said, wow mother fucker, shut the fuck up dumb ass, this shit ain't cool. I mean dude, really. You holding an idea that never became action against the government is like giving Obama a Nobel Peace Prize for his ideas that have not even begun to near action.

Alright, now, the less fun one, Gulf of Tonkin Incident.

So, I read this and was trying to figure out what was going on; then I starting thinking like a conspiracy theorist. So, I am guessing that you believe that the government cause the ship's radar to show signs of enemy ships that weren't there. They fired a bunch of munitions, hit nothing, and Lyndon Johnson turned it into an opportunity to do whatever he wants with the military in the South East. At least, that's what I am guessing the theory is. Still, I am not exactly sure how this would have been executed seeing as how the government would have had 2 days to execute a plan because the success of it hindered on being attacked so shortly after having just been attacked; showing that the North Vietnamese were attempting to purposefully target wounded and battle worn US Naval Vessels. I mean, you'd have to come up with some way to get the ship to have false read outs of vessels in the water, so on and so forth. Now, even if the government did set this up and do it, who the fuck did it hurt? The truth of the matter is that the NSA misinterpreted a piece of intelligence and thought there was an attack; and also that the guy on the radar of the vessel misread the radar screen. The NSA covered up their mistake by allowing the president to believe that an attack had really occurred. To me that sounds like typical NSA and CIA shit. They fucked up, no harm, no foul, they cover up. The fact of the matter is, this incident was no terror attack, merely a radar misinterpretation and communication blunder that was covered up so the NSA and Navy didn't look completely incompetent.



So, as you can see, those two incidents are pretty much your typical week in the Intelligence field. I guarantee you right now that there were probably over a hundred crack pot schemes from within the Intelligence Agencies to do something stupid on American soil that have been shot down since 9/11; and probably thousands before it. The simple fact of the matter is, it doesn't matter if some one thinks it up, as long as no one is stupid enough to act on it; and your example of Northwoods clearly showed that it was not acted upon.

[Level-One]

First I want to say, sorry for taking two days to respond to this. What is bolded is a quick way for rickrampage to find my response to him as it's mixed in with my reply to triple B. And Jessie, in order to be dumber, you'd have to be dumb in the first place. So, please. Stick to insulting me, will you?

First I want to say, sorry for taking two days to respond to this. As I said my first post was lost and I've been pretty busy since but here's to it.

Prepare to get smarter, Jesse!

You mean the red'grey chips found by a couple guys who wrote the Jones/Harrit/Roberts paper, who then say this is proof positive of "nanotermite?"  Yeah... that's rust inhibiting primer paint with a Kaolinite base.   And after they were called out on that?  They then altered it to say that the termite was placed in paint and sprayed all over the floors and trusses.  The problem with that?  You can't evenly distribute the thermite on the trusses to allow for a controlled demo.  And when you atomize thermite into a spray form... it goes everyone.  You would have explosive dust EVERYWHERE in that building.  And on people. You mean to tell me nobody blew up after lighting a cigarette on break?  The problem with most of the 9/11 Conspiracies is that you have to jump to ALOT of conclusions.  You have no direct proof of almost all this stuff. 

There's also been MORE architects that have explained how it SHOULD have fallen.  History Channel just had a "9/11 Debunked" special on, where they ran down almost every single conspiracy theories out there.  Rather than attempting to argue a point at hand, you toss out "Maybe we should take down buildings with a bic lighter."  There is a HUGE difference between a couple 100 story buildings falling on top of a building that has SEVEN fuel sources in it to feed fires, and trying to burn down a building.  There was over 43,000 gallons of diesel fuel,  being fed through pressurized lines to generators throughout the building.  The problem with 9/11 Conspiracy Theorists is that they talk like a fire in a room "took down" the whole building.  Sure, we've all seen the pictures of one side, where video cameras were:

First, the paint. Honestly, we can go back and forth about this until the cows come home. Everything, you try to debunk has been re-debunked. So, on so forth. At the end of the day, I go with my gut. Because honestly, you don't know what the fuck was in that dust anymore then I've claimed I do. For every scientist. Artichect  or former intelligent officer that defends the alternate story, there's always ten people to call them a kook. For every, scientist, artichect, or current intelligent officer that swears by the ''official'' story, they're on the government payroll. Now of those two scenarios, the ladder is fact. But regardless...

http://911debunkers.blogspot.com/2009/07/more-about-that-exploding-paint.html

I also love the fact that these said debunkers can't admit to at least, not being able to debunk at least one thingâ€"rather then coming up with ridiculous explanations to cover their tracks. When you literally have an answer for everything, as large and as complex and 9/11; you immediately know, they're jumping to conclusions and this goes for BOTH sides of the equation. Pro story and Anti-official story.

The notion that they mistake primer paint for nanothermite, is laugh worthy at best. Unless you can provide evidence that these same engineers/scientists, also believe Aliens, the Holocaust didn't happen and that the moon is a space station; I find it hardly unreasonable that a mistake like that could be made.

And yes, architects have explained how it should have fallen. If the building was leaning, a part of the building should fall over like a lumber jack cuts a tree (an analogy I recall hearing); as in, it wouldn't topple over onto it side; but it wouldn't collapse on top of it's itself like the ''pancake'' theory, has claimed.

As for hot the flames were burning in the building, it hasn't been measured. So, I don't know if you get these statistics from the same reports that ignored the WTC 7 collapse, entirely. In fact, I'd bet you could find a bunch of American's who hasn't even heard of WTC 7 because it's be heavily ignored and suppressed by the media. WHY?

Again, I honestly wouldn't know otherwise on this specific area (of how hot the fires were, what would melt the steel, ect) but food for thought, here's one that disputes your claim anyways.

Quite frankly, the collapse of the WTC buildings could have happened just as the media said - IF steel melts or becomes significantly weaker at a temperature of a fire that is fueled by jet fuel - which is essentially a purified form of kerosene. However, steel does NOT melt or become significantly weaker at such low temperatures, and what everybody - including Alex Jones - fails to mention, is that IF that structural steel could melt, or be weakened at even 1,500 degrees, the ambient temperature around that steel would have had to have been much, much higher. This temperature would have certainly super-heated the air inside the building, and instantly seared the lungs of everyone in the impact zone. We know that this did NOT happen, since NONE of the people who were in the impact zone who escaped the collapse when interviewed, even MENTION anything about the heat of the fire. Also, dark, black smoke from the fires is indicia of a slow and oxygen-starved, incomplete combustion, and it is my contention that the fires were not anywhere NEAR even 1,500 degrees - even though the sprinkler systems failed due to water supply lines that were severed by the impact. Hence, the theory that the steel supports collapsed due to the heat of the fires, has to be called into question.

More on this can be found here: http://www.net4truthusa.com/wtccollapse.htm

Although, because it doesn't read ''CNN'' I guess it's not credible.

Also, I would love to hear your explanation on where the hell did the large concrete block, serving as the buildings structure went too? The same block that could only be destroyed by detonations.



The core of the World Trade Center buildings consisted of a robust core of forty seven (47) 4-inch thick "box" columns embedded several hundred feet into the bedrock BELOW the seven (7) story basement foundation. Each of these columns were arranged so that they supported both the internal and external structure. The outside column supports were tied to the core with radial I-beam supports to which were welded hundreds of tons of rebar (steel reinforcing rods) and corrugated steel floor pans into which the floor concrete was poured. The core supported the elevator structure, and provided conduits for utilities (gas, water, electricity, phone lines, sewer lines, etc.).

More can be read here: http://www.net4truthusa.com/wtcdemolition.htm

As for the video; I guess I'm missing what you are trying to show me. All I see is a bad video editing job and a distracting jump cut that reeks deception or at least incompetence.



As for Larry Silverstein who should have been INVESTIGATED as possible suspect to this crime (he took out insurance claims months before the attack; then made billions off of it's destruction) easily could have meant ''pull it'' as what some believe it mean, demo the building. As you've just claimed, he isn't a demo expert and could easily make the mistake. Unless you've done research on demos, if you heard ''pull it'' it's the obvious conclusion you'd jump too.

And the problem with conspiracy theorists? Well, I'll get that ''term'' later in another post. But as for ignoring buildings for their own ''benefits'' how about you talk about the mainstream talking heads, that also ignored those buildings and WTC 7 after the attacks. The initial report on the attack, ignored the building entirely! Ridiculous.

Anyways, I'm not sure I'm seeing your point. Other buildings were damaged? Okay, no one is disputing that. Steel rods were found four blocks away from the epicentre? Well, wouldn't that account for the building being blown to shit, as well?

And some kid posted that Chris Benoit had died on his Wikipedia page when he didn't show for the ECW PPV too.  What AMERICAN media outlet... and not some podink newspaper in bumblefuck Idaho, but MAJOR network in America, said the WTC collapsed prior to it happening?  My guess is that ANYONE who didn't have video feeds of the towers, could have been told the wrong thing, sure.  But all it takes is a video feed, which almost EVERYONE had at that point, to see that the towers were still standing.  Did some overseas channels get it wrong at first?  Yeah, especially in Asia.  But I just saw a "news" report from China that depicted Rubort Murdoch as a man shark.

Okay, here we go. As I've said before; the mainstream media don't actually do much of their own research. The report on governmental press releases and or/ leech off other main-stream news channel that initially picked the story up. The official debunk line about the following videos are that; ''the media would have to be in on it too'' but it doesn't work that way. Compartmentalization. These reporters feed off press releases (mainly put out first by AP and a few other high level sources the media then picks the stories up from); thus the reporter standing there doesn't know what the hell is going on reading from a teleprompter. Hell, if the BBC one just turned around and looked with her own goddamn eyes she would have saw it still standing here.

Fox news: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHFdcPv3XXI
BBC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mxFRigYD3s&feature=fvw

Yes, they were all cave men.  Ignore the fact that almost all of them came from rich and affluent families.  Ignore the fact that many had fought the Soviets in Afgahnistan.  And ignore the fact that almost all were college educated and some had already logged time in planes and had licenses.  You also ignore the concept of surprise.  You really think anyone was expecting anyone to take over the plane?  The doors weren't secure as they are now to the pilot's cabin, and to normal American passengers, they took at face value that they were told a bomb was on board and to sit down.  TODAY... you'd have a revolt on the plane, easily.  Back then?  Not so much.  And even THEN, after the first 3 planes hit, and the passengers found out, they took down the plane in Shanksville.  Pretty good for a bunch of fat Americans with NO weapons, huh?

My comment was meant slightly as a joke. I think we are on the same page here. They were created, funded by the U.S government. They created the same groups that they claimed attacked the trade centres; thus, in part, they are responsible soley on that base alone. Secondly, ignore the NORAD stand downs and the drills simulating the attacks on the day of; then. Also, ignore everything that has come of these attacks as a result. More weapons sales. Less freedom. And in return, less securityâ€"and I'll address these FACTS later on. I don't know what your rant about the people on board have anything to do with, anything; because I haven't questioned why they didn't fight back because it's obvious why they didn't. I also, caught the ''fat american'' jab followed by the, ''huh?'' backing up the official tag line around here, that I supposedly hate America. Give me a break, man.

What proof?  You say that there's proof that they let it happen, but then say that in 20 years when stuff is declassified we'll know the truth.  You can have an opinion that there's more to it, sure.  But you can't say that you KNOW that the government did it, or allowed it to happen just because you read a couple nutty websites and watched Loose Change's three different incarnations.

Personally, I agree with you that we don't know it all.  However, I find it MUCH more plausible that the Bush Administration did not want to volunteer information, cause we'd find out that our "Wartime President" was too busy branding cattle to worry about his Presidential Briefs warning that this stuff could happen.  I don't think they helped, or let it happen.  But I think they dropped the ball and don't want people to know until most of these people die off, to avoid the shame.  And I DO think that they used 9/11 to get advantages in going to war, and helping friendly companies.  But there are MORE than enough honest, good people out there, even in the Bush Administration, that would have said or done something.  If the "architect" of the Gay Bills that got Bush Elected in 2004 can come out a few years later as being gay, I would assume someone would feel guilty enough to fess up or point fingers.  Conspiracies fall apart when there's too many people involved.

And I agree with most of this; except the notion ''conspiracies fall apart with too many people involved'' considering everything today is compartmentalized. You never know what the person above you is doing. It's like me blaming the troops for all the innocent IRAG/AFGHAN civilians they have killed. First of all, a large portion don't even believe what they are fighting for (and express this once they're out) second of all, most DO believe what they are fighting for. They DO believe the IRAG/AFGHAN is our enemy and a threat to our safety and security, because they're sold on the propaganda. That doesn't mean they are bad people. It's those above them that conned the nation into going to war; who is responsible for over a million deaths in the past several years. Now with that, 9/11 HAS fallen apart. More and more people are coming out speaking against it. More artichets and engineers are screaming fowl; and expect MORE as time goes on, and they no longer have a obligation or job to spread government lies.

The problem is, most people have been trained to deny and discredit ANYONE who comes out against the official story. You know FULL WELL; the government could stage an attack; and still people would buy the official story. You don't even have to agree with me on 9/11; but you know this much true. There are people who will believe anything off the television (much like there are some nuts who believe EVERYTHING is staged) the only difference is, the ones not asking questions of their government, are about more then half of those who do; but people are slowly beginning to take notice.

And if you agree that staged attacks USED to happen... which one's do you think were staged? And then, why would they stop?

And I'm sorry, but Rickrampage has proven to be one of these people. You didn't know what operations north woods was, a two days ago. A day later, you Wikipedia it, and suddenly post a response doing your best to marginalize/debunk the facts? Give me a fucking break. You also can't look at this as an isolated incident and expect to make any sense of it but rather study the climate in which it emerged, and you can't do that in a day, buddy.

Who ultimately slapped down the false-flag attack to blame it on Cuba? JFK. Who was KILLED a mere year later in probably the most agreed on conspiracy around, to date? JFK. How about Gulf of Tonkin? You know, the event USED to get a war kick started JFK had refused to start? Well, it was used as a propaganda piece to invade Vietnam. All these things are connected. All these things occurred in the time span of three years.

Your conclusion was, it didn't happen which means it doesn't happen. Honestly? Real powerful. Considering, when I brought it up I noted the fact that it was a plan that wasn't carried out. The point of bringing it up, is to show you the frame of mind of these people.

Now let's do some critical thinking, as you've been so concerned about proving me wrong rather then approaching it with an open mind; if intelligent services propose ''plans'' like operations north woods more then ''we even know'' then why aren't people being prosecuted and thrown in jail, for drawing up war game battle plans and conspiring to kill their own citizens, huh? Why, if none of these ''plans'' are ever used, are they continued to be drawn up and put forth on the desks of presidents?

Simple. These plans wouldn't be proposed if there was no chance in history of them going through with it.

No.  I think that alot of people can't deal with what happened.  And I think they want people to blame.  I think they want to look someone in the eye and say "You did this to us!"  And I think that people just want to be told what to think.  You're no different.  I think that Alex Jones wants to make money, so he creates a website and tries to put fear into people.  Fear that the government is tossing planes at people.  Fear that Muslims are taking over the country.  Fear that black people are taking jobs away from white people due to Affirmative Action.  Fear that illegal immigrants are taking jobs away from white people.  It helps them sell books and movies and DVDs.  Not all of it is crap.  Some questions NEED to be raised.  But when the question is answered in a plausible manner, you have to move on.  If people put the  effort into wanting to find Bin Laden and put a bullet in his head that they did trying to tell us that the WTC being hit was a hoax and that BILLIONS Of people were duped into thinking planes hit buildings, we'd have killed most of Al Qaeda by now.  You're not a nut.  Misguided perhaps.

Now back to Triple B with his pot shot on Alex Jonesâ€"which is borderline MNSBC type disinfo/outright lying. If Alex Jones wanted to make money, he'd be on a show with Glenn Beck coughing up millions. His radio show and websites receive more viewership, then any main stream television outlet today (with MAYBE the exception of Beck, but I doubt it) So, before you say itâ€"jumping to conclusions that he's lying about being approached by Mainstream media outlets to work at their stations, doesn't support common sense nor any understanding of the business of television, itself.

Secondly, his show is self funded. I've seen clips from his old show, with shitty video camera/sound quality, and it looked like he was running it out of his basement. I've seen his old films in 90's where it looks like a slightly better version of a slide show project, with narrative being put over it. Whether you like what he's saying or not, he worked his way up and could have sold out to make money, a long time ago. The notion that he's there to sell books and DVD's is a joke at best. The books sold, aren't his. And DVD's he makes, are also on the internet for free and encourages his listener ship to pass out free DVD's of his movie. The DVD's are a slightly better way, then getting people to donate.

The funny part about this? You couldn't get one main-stream media talking head, mainstream music artist, or anyone possessing 10 times the money, to do with Alex Jones does. Rather, quite the opposite.

Now lastly, I'd encourage you to actually bother to listen to show rather then state things, I know for a fact aren't true. He doesn't spread fear that Muslims are running the country; Fox news does. The Muslims are used as a distraction and a divide and conquer tactic; see this thread burning on the Q'uran for an example. Also, never claimed black people are taking jobs from white people (lol, wtf?) but has stood up for 51%  of blacks NOT being slaughted by Margret Sangers, wet dream to root out the useless ''weeds''. Alex jones DOES claim the illegal immigrants are taking jobs for Americans (but does not hate them, trust me) but it's common knowledge that that is the fact. Rather the focus needs to be taken off the illegal immigrants and the employers that hire them, instead. Why wouldn't a construction business hire an illegal if it means saving them money and the know full well, they can get away with it?

And if I wanted someone to blame Triple B, I could easily blame the spooky Al-CIA-DUH that the CIA created. If I wanted some to blame, I could easily move to new york city and protest the mosque, which effects everyday Muslims; for the hell of it. If I wanted someone to blame it would be those ''darn arabs, hurr, hurr, hurr''; I don't buy it.

What's most telling about the attacks in the response afterwards. Wars, illegal wire taps, patriot act (which we both agree are bad, bad, bad) less freedom and stupid shit like Body scanners on the airport. Basically your supposed to lose more freedom and be harassed in airports in the name of the terrorists, yet the border is left wide open? Yeah, makes sense.

What's more telling about the attacks is that the media constantly attacks people who share my suspicions, fuelling it more. What's more telling about the attacks; is that the government refuses to give the first responder heroes, after sending them into the dust to collect lung cancer, lying telling them it's safe to breathâ€"and when they do come out to complain, they're called ambulance chasers.

If that doesn't show you what kind of corrupt criminals are running your government (as well as mine) nothing will. And that's fine. In the next ten, fifteen, twenty years, when the interchangeable puppets continue to fuck us over side ways; you'll be the ultimate spectator to the countries destruction (and I'm not talking just about America) Grab your popcorn, it'll be one hell of a show.

[RickRampage]

Look man, I'll agree that I've never heard of Northwoods or the other. I mean, hell, when I was in high school 7 some years ago, I was all for conspiracy theories and shit. I read all about them. I know that some believe Lyndon Johnson and the CIA had Kennedy assassinated; I also know that some believe that it was Russia or Cuba. I also know that some believe Jack Ruby wasn't so much a patriot as he was more or less just a man keeping Lee Harvey Oswald silent. I've read up on Skull and Bones and seen the theories that connect them to the Kennedy assassination. I've heard the conspiracy that they really control the entire government, including the Presidency, and that they sit each new President elect down and show them the Kennedy assassination film and say,'Any Questions'. Hell, I've even read stories with documents they call proof, of Jacklyn Kennedy visiting a secure military base after JFK's assassination, and they say it proves that Kennedy was still alive and being treated by military doctors. I've read all these stories and I've realized that the deeper you get into them, the further away from the truth you get. The problem with conspiracy theories is that they stack all this circumstantial evidence together and call it proof, but when some one points out the major whole in their theory, the dismiss as circumstance and proof of nothing.

My point is, we can argue this til the end of time, but even if some one shows you irrefutable proof, you'll probably just dismiss it as a cover up or circumstance. I've run into it a hundred times with my studying of the Kennedy Assassination and the theories with Skull and Bones. So, when some one shows me a conspiracy theory, I simply state my opinion and what I believe. Now, if you want to continue arguing it, which I know you will, then go ahead. Cause I know there is no point in arguing back. You won't listen, you've become so sure it's a conspiracy that you'll dismiss anything saying it's not. Like I said, show me irrefutable proof that 9/11 was an inside job and I will be happy to believe you; but the simple fact of the matter is that you'll never find it. If it was an inside job, 9/11 will be buried in an on going operation that will be exempt from the Freedom of Information act, and it will never see the light of day unless it is leaked.

Now, as I was saying, all this stuff that conspiracy theorists have as evidence; the declassified documents and all; if it were important, or something the CIA and NSA didn't want you to know, they'd use the ongoing operation loop hole in the Freedom of Information act, and it would never see the light of day. Hell, even wikileaks knows they have nothing of importance from their sources. I mean, I would almost guarantee you that their source is a CIA operative feeding them bullshit that hasn't been declassified yet, and none of it matters. The CIA in public then gets in an uproar about it, but nothing ever comes of it because none of it matters. That's the way the CIA operates. They'll feed groups like wikileaks enough stuff to keep them from digging further, and keep what's really important safe. It's what they do and they've done it for years. Anything you call proof is stuff that the intelligence community deems unimportant. Trust me, they wouldn't have allowed Operation Northwoods to become declassified if they were planning on actually allowing something similar to occur in the future. They wouldn't have wanted the American people to have the ammunition to shine light on what had really happened. The simple fact of the matter is that they allow conspiracy theorists and wikileaks to chase after stuff that leads to a dead end, while everything that the people might actually want to know is tucked safely away in an ongoing operation file that will never see the light of day.